Forum Activity for @Clay

Grant -

Brad gives a lot of good advice here. 

Right now it sounds like everything is abstract. Actually make the products and try them and then give them to your friends and have them try them. Test them out. You won't know what works until you do.

One thing we don't know is where you are. Brad's shop is in Calgary, Alberta, CA, and that market might be different from other markets.

Using butter is a bad idea - there's already enough fat in cocoa. If you want to make your product thicker/richer just use less liquid or mix different milks. See the Wikipedia entry on this .

Why are you reluctant to use cornstarch? Have you tried it?

The most important take-away from what Brad says is that by trying to be everything to everybody you end diluting (pun intended) the brand and end up being ... without a viewpoint. You cannot cater to every potential food allergy or dietary fad out there.

Pick something and do it well. Own it unapologetically and do the best you can. Yes, you will lose some business ... but focus on the 90% who want your product and not the 10%. (Is there a vegan meetup in your area?)

If you want to do a water base and then prepare it with milk or water that's about as far as I would go ... but if you are steaming will you have to have two of everything (do you have room in your mobile environment?) to avoid cross-contamination -- the fraction of your customers who are vegans (research suggests that about 2.5% of the population is vegan - at the high end - but I bet the percentage of vegans in Omaha, NE is a lot less than in San Francisco) will require it.

But until you actually test in your market you can't know.

Grant;

I've been doing this for a long time, and have amassed such a loyal following that my customers have, in the past two months stepped up and loaned my company $300,000 to build a bigger factory.

Here are some words of wisdom to live by when you are trying to "keep your costs down".

1.  Garbage in.  Garbage out.  You can't take crappy ingredients and make great things from them.  Cocoa powder is the bottom of the barrel in the chocolate industry.

3.  If you use liquor, you don't need to add fat.  The liquor is +/-50% fat already.  Use a homogenized milk, or even a 2% fat milk.  That works best.

4.  Under $20, if the quality is there, nobody cares about price.  This has been proven time and again with movie theatre admission, theatre popcorn, wine, chocolate bars, and way overpriced cappuccino's.  Make a product that WOW's people, THEN figure out your costs and charge accordingly.  People will pay the price you ask.

5.  With respect to a "vegan option", I did almost 6 months of research on this one, and it's a total bust.  I made a drinking chocolate with Soy Milk.  Anti-soy vegans complained.  I made a version with Almond Milk.  Nut allergic vegans complained, plus it tasted nutty.  I made a version with rice milk, and an amazing whipped edible oil product for the top (or optional toasted marshmallow).  It seemed to pass all the "acceptability tests" from all the hypocondriac fair trade organic non gmo wingnut vegans out there, so advertised the heck out of it.   In fact I got FABULOUS feedback during product trials.  So.... I spent several thousand dollars on marketing, literature, signage, social media (vegan facebook pages, etc.), and sold.... you ready?  40 servings.  I also threw out a lot of pre-prepared drink bases, because nobody purchased.  If you would like to create a version that caters to the 6 vegans out there in the world at the cost of quality to those who actually pay your bills, well.... I think you are selling yourself short.

Well, I hope that helps.

Hi everybody, I would like to hear your opinion regarding a forthcoming cocoa event. We’ve been trying to make the arrangements since last year but we had to delay it several times due to severe drought.

It will be developed in a small town, named Garzón, in the central part of the Colombian department, Huila. We aim to asses several cocoa bean samples, from single farm origin, for their flavor profile to explore different flavors in this department and try to arrange the farmers who owns special flavor cocoa, with micro batch and small chocolate makers.

Some of you may have heard about other Colombian cacao origins such as Santander, Tumaco, Arauca or Sierra Nevada, but not Huila. Most cocoa around here is trinitario hybrids with criollo traits and some few criollos. Some farmers have clones, but the vast majority owns very old highly diverse cocoa plantations. This has been a barrier for development of Huila cocoa market since this variability poses a challenge for selling uniform cocoa beans in a significant quantity, every farm tastes very differently and even bean size varies greatly.

We would love to have some international clients and experts for this event, so I come to you for some advice.

First, the date could be somewhere between September and December of 2016 Our sensory panel is busy until September 11  and I’m aware that there are a lot of great cocoa and chocolate events on those dates so I’m open to suggestions.

About the duration, I’m thinking one day of a small public academic agenda and cocoa awards, and three to four days for the clients and experts to meet the farms and local cocoa production.

I´m open to every suggestion and I insist that it would be great to have some of you around here but keep in mind that this is a small event, focused on giving farmers a new horizon and meeting with possible clients. If you are a cocoa or chocolate expert, I would like to know your fees in a private message so we can discuss our budget.

We have support in English, French and maybe German. We would arrange transport and lodging from Neiva (Huila capital city) to Garzón. It is possible to reach Neiva in airplane (Bogotá-Neiva) but from there to Garzón there is only terrestrial transport (2 hours).

This event is organized by Fedecacao and Camara de Comercio de Neiva, and it is supported by Coocentral, Ministerio de Agricultura, Procolombia.

If you would like to contact me, please send me a PM and If you are interested in coffee, there is a lot to see around here too.

Thanks Clay and Brad. As per subject I was planning on pre preparing, a liquid choc, to cut down the time it would take to make it on site. Definitely no melting of chocolate.

I like the water ganache/syrup suggestion and that it would give me vegan/vegetarian options. Warm/hot milk could always get added to this to make it richer.

Ive been reading that water ganache tends to bring out the chocolaty notes better than standard ganache. Is this true?

Two weeks back I made a beautiful chocolat Chaud with chocolate and cream. This is the reason I was looking at butter to make it fattier/richer/thicker and equivalent to cream when I mixed the ganache/syrup with full cream milk.

I'm reluctant to use cornstarch but may consider it in the premixed water phase with sugar.

What can I do to increase the solubility of the cacao/cocoa?

So the suggestions is to use the best quality liquor which is basically ground nibs? I want to keep the costs down so would prefer not to use any components that are too expensive.

we do monitor the temperature at which we temper, which seems to be working just right for our chocolate, but not the humuidity. Whats your insight on humidity and its effect in tempering?

$6 drink in Canadian Dollars .... 99cents in US Dollars.

Advice from Brad ... Priceless.

Haha! 

Brad - $6 Canadian? What's that in real money? [ Tongue planted firmly in cheek - it's a joke everyone. ]

Grant - there's some good advice in what Brad has to say. One is that you need to take a look at how long it's going to prepare a serving. One of the fastest ways — if you are committed to a la minute preparation — is to steam/froth an already prepare liquid. You don't have to have a 100% prepared in advance mix if your concept is something else, but take into consideration preparation times. It shouldn't take longer than preparing a cappuccino.

Water and milk make very different products. One is not necessarily better than the other, they are different. Traditionally, dairy was not used, water was. Cornstarch is a pretty modern ingredient in hot chocolate mixtures and is great (in small amounts) for adding mouth feel and body. Keep in mind that it does take some extra time for the starch to fully hydrate and if you serve it too soon it can have a pasty texture whether you use milk or water. In Mexico they used (and still use) very finely ground corn flour in their atole (also called champurrado).

If you wanted a very "authentic" product then water and very fine corn flour are one way to go. A more modern take (and one that might appeal to more customers) would be dairy and cornstarch. Of course, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

AND, if you are going to use dairy, use the absolute best — freshest and most flavorful — dairy you can source.

:: Clay

Hi Clay,

thanks so much for the response. I suspected thats what it was but I am surprised mostly that it shows up only several weeks after the chocolate is done. We use coconut palm sugar.

The strangest thing is we actually use a high end tempering machine. So if I wanted to prevent this using the machine, would it mean I'd have to make the chocolate heat up and cool down numerous times to ensure proper bonding of the molecules?

Sanja -

The chocolate is not tempered properly. What you have here is a classic case of fat bloom.

The best way to fix the problem is to hone you tempering skills. That said, what are you using to sweeten the chocolate? Some sweeteners have a lot of moisture in them that interferes with the tempering process - so it could partly be a recipe issue.

Also - ambient environment can have an affect. Do you monitor temperature and humidity where you temper?

I don't see any Ecuadorian cacao on OM foods website. Am I missing something?

You guys crack me up.

Dear Chocolate lovers,

I have been making chocolate the raw way for the past months, i.e. I don't heat anything above 42 Celsius in the process. I'm noticing with some of the chocolates I make that they look perfectly fine when they come out of the form and for the following couple of weeks, however, some of them after a while start to develop streaks. They seem to get just a little less visible as I go over them with my finger, but mostly the discoloration remains. Is there any way to prevent or at least mitigate this altered look in the long run?

I am aware that this sometimes shows up right after the chocolate  is done, but I find it strange that it becomes visible after lets say 2 or 3 weeks. What are some tricks and tips to prevent this?

Thank you so much!

Sanja

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I have tried many of giddy yo yo's chocolates and they don't make me high... If you eat raw chocolate and don't get high from it then I can almost guaruntee that its not fully raw. Chocolate in its raw form stimulates serotonin, and contains tryptophan, anandamide, and PEA as well as theobromine. These things all stimulate feelings of euphoria and excitement but Giddy Yo Yo fails at this. They are probably the biggest raw chocolate maker in Canada though.

Also if your looking for supply they are not a supplier, their prices are too high for raw chocolate ingredients. They are a chocolate manufacturer who also sells ingredients on the side which means you pay a premium to buy from them in bulk.

I would reccomend OM Foods now. They just got a new shipment of Ecuadorian cacao that is organic, raw, and fair trade certified, and their new price on this shipment is the best I've found in Canada.

Giddy YoYo is a company that provides Ecuadorian RAW heirloom chocolate. They are Very focused on high quality raw cacao products. They make bars and such and they also wholesale paste, butter, nibs ect. they are in Canada.

Here's a recipe you can try.  It's worked for me over the past 7 years, and I've sold close to 20,000 12 oz cups of the stuff at premium prices ($6 per cup).

4 litres of Homogonized Milk

450g of the best liquor you can buy (unsweetened chocolate)

890g of regular granulated sugar

60g cornstarch.

Shave the chocolate and set aside.

Mix the sugar and the cornstarch together, then dissolve in the milk and bring the milk to almost a boil.  

Remove the milk from heat, and stir in the shaved liquor.

Pour into a jug, and then portion out and use a steamer to reheat it as needed.

IF YOU WANT THE BEST FLAVOUR USE THE BEST INGREDIENTS.  Water isn't one of them.

Some people balk at the use of cornstarch, but it serves a couple of very important uses:  1.  It thickens the drink without making it too sweet or too bitter.  2.  It suspends all of the fats and particulate in the drink to create a homogenous beverage.   For a beverage truck type of service you are suggesting, melting chocolate and mixing it with liquid is not practical when there's a lineup of people impatiently waiting.  This beverage can be made ahead of time and quickly steamed with a miriad of spices to create different flavours.  One of my most popular is the drink with two tablespoons of hazelnut butter.  OMG!!!

It's also good to know that the use of corn starch goes back all the way to aztec times when maze (a traditional incredient) was ground with the cocoa beans to make the drink.  Back then the starches were introduced naturally.  Having said that, this recipe makes your drink closer to the traditional form than any of those you have described, and it tastes WAAAAAAY better.

Hope that helps.

Brad

Need more heat on the stones / drum?     I currently use a Robot Coupe to pre-grind part of the batch, once you have some liquid and frictional heat being generated then just adding nibs slowly works if everything is warm enough,   A s/h RC  would be around $700 - 1000

Looking for 2 chocolatier available immediatly for our Las Vegas Chocolate Factory.

Please send resume to jma@jmauboinechocolates.com

Hi Folks,

Just posted a comment on another topic regarding building a DIY cocoa butter press.... that's not something I'd ever try although I've got a full workshop with a welder, lathe etc available.  

But still, in the spirit of DIY,  here's something both useful and relatively easy to make,  I've attached two photos of the 6 mold shaker I built this week.  I looked to buy a similar set up and it was going to be $2000!  My version uses the same Oli brand vibration motor I found under one of my purchased commercially made single mold shakers (Catalog price 1000 Euro!) 

This bigger version cost me less than $400 and a few hours of messing around in my workshop. Main parts needed:  One Aluminum NSF marked 18 x 28" sheet pan, some 1" stainless tubing, plastic joints and some fasteners etc., along with a 18 x 26 Silpat mat.   The vibration motor and compression springs were $220 on Amazon and the rest of the parts were found / sourced locally.   I even fitted a cheap router speed control ($7 at Harbor Freight) to make the thing fully adjustable.     Using my lathe I machined 4 sets of bushings for the springs and also a piece of tooling to countersink the mounting screws in the sheet pan, apart from that only hand tools needed.... Mainly a big hammer to fit the plastic frame joints!

Looking forward to being able to vibrate 6 filled bar molds at a time,  also good for Easter eggs etc.     If anyone wants details,  send me a message and I'll provide more detailed info....

MJ

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There really isn't a good / cheap option at the scale you want to produce.  Making a few hundred grams of CB using one of the chinese made electric electric 'oil' press devices is possible. For a few hundred dollars I suspect they won't last long?  There are some Taiwanese built 100T cacao presses out there, I've no personal experience of them, looks like they could work and make several kilos a day, you would need 3phase power and a strong floor they weigh a couple of tons at least.

Scaling up is both difficult and and expensive.  You simply wouldn't get the level of production (25#/ day) you want from any home brewed set up built using a cheap automotive bearing press.  You need far more force and some means to heat the pressing pot in a controlled way and also some safety screening.  I've built a lot of my own bean to bar set up,  but personally wouldn't bother to try to build a DIY press using a chinese HF 12 T press etc...sure, OK for pressing the wheel bearings off a rear axle, but simply not up to delivering the force necessary to extract cocoa butter efficiently or safely.    

I do admire the home brew crew and in certain parts of the world using a gas blow lamp on the outside of a pot made from an old diesel truck engine cylinder, a metal slug and some old cacao sacking and a hand jack powered automotive press does appear to be a means to produce small quantities of CB of unknown quality?  Personally, don't think this would fly with food safety / insurance etc here in the States, certainly wouldn't meet, State or Federal GMP food codes.

You do really need to both preheat the liquor and heat the pressing chamber to ensure efficient extraction - 25% or better.)  There's complex machining and or welding involved in making a safe (proofed) pressure pot capable of withstanding the massive force being applied. The cost of the billet material needed would likely suprise you.   You need a perforated follower, CB recovery system and a heating system.  The food contact surfaces need to be 304 / 316 stainless or better, and the press frame etc needs to be NSF food safe powder coat, not some potentially cadium or lead containing chinese paint or powder coat.  Electrical needs to be EL code etc.  need a safety screen around the press to protect staff from injury etc,

The Cacao Cucina systems appear built and designed by a company that knows how to design and build this sort of item to comply with the standards and safety norms. They are USA based hence relatively expensive, is there any other viable alternative currently?  Also consider the specs.....

The Lab Cocoa press uses a 75T press as the 'engine', that's a heavy duty bit of kit.   FYI:  Just the cost of a decent quality DAKE brand 75T 'workshop press' is around $9 - 10K.  The 5kg scale Cacao Cucina press apparently uses a dual action 200T press, these cost at least $25K. These items also weigh 1500 - 2600#  can your floors take the load, do you have the necessary space and electrical?   

Even if you manage to build something (cheaper?)  according to the Cacao Cucina specs their 200T model can only process a 5kg batch of liquor, assuming a decent yield of CB that's just over a kilo of CB per batch!  Are you going to run that device 10-12 times a day to obtain 25# or hire a staff member to do it, while you continue with your 'day job' of making chocolate and running the rest of your business?

Why not do the return on investment calculation?   i.e.  Is being able to press CB from you own cacao a critical aspect of your business model?  If yes,  What's the cost of investment needed?  Can I obtain a loan to purchase the necessary kit hire the staff to produce at the daily scale needed.  What is the ROI / pay back timeframe?

Good Luck!  and please be very careful if you go DIY 

Mark

Hi everyone, I'd like to say hello and introduce myself. Originally from the Czech Republic, I'm based in the SF Bay Area. I am first and foremost a writer but professionally speaking, an A.P.E. — that stands for Author Producer Entrepreneur (or Author Publisher Entrepreneur if you ask Guy Kawasaki). I've worked on Hollywood film sets, learned to dance flamenco, got nearly locked up in an ancient Byzantine mosque in Spain, met the real Baron von Munchausen in Malta, and rode 6 floors in a tiny wooden elevator belly to belly with a former Latin American president.

I also happen to love chocolate, so much so that I wrote a book about its history and mythology. For kids. Adventure/fantasy, based on the real stuff. (There actually was a Lord Cacao in old Tik'al.) But all these adults keep reading it and getting lost in it. I guess no one is immune to the stuff...

I've been following some of the posts here and finally found some time to set up an account and say hello.  And now that I have, the risk that I might start asking questions and participating in these forums is dangerously real.

Really looking forward to learning from the wonderful collective expertise that breathes from every page here, getting to know some of you, and contributing as much as I can.

Warm regards,

Birgitte

www.birgitterasine.com

Hey All,

I have a Cocoatown 65 and Im looking for the best solution for adding nibs to the Grindeur. It seems to seize up pretty easily. Any help would be appreciated. 

Also, if there is a good solution for pre grinding that I'm unaware of, I would love to know it. I would have a small budget for this task ($1000 maybe). 

Thanks!

OK Cool Thanks

S

I think that's more a question of you working out your budget, your production schedule and then seeing what equipment you need (to produce at capacity) and what you can afford.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Hi Gap,

I hope you don't mind some more questions? .... About buying equipment - before hitting the purchase button on Mol D'art

Are you able to "make it" with the equipment you have now? Or do you have another job? My idea is to buy affordable small scale eqipment to use for as long as I can, maybe a year, till a bank lender will consider me "eligable" for a business loan.

In the moment I sell to two customers - One big one that sells up to 100 of my bars a month, and a tiny chocolate boutique. This is about all I am producing now, using my tequnique of warming the chocolate in a dehydrator during the day, which takes hours. I have a part time job working three days a week, so basically I work everyday  

Thanks!

I pre grind nibs only for 2 hours,then add sugar some butter, then grind to spec, then add residual butter and lecithin.

Not sure when you mean by "at sugar addition". Do you add yours right after nibs or do you wait? And when do you add the rest of the butter?

Try grinding your nibs only with fan on for -two hours before addition of sugar.

adding butter at sugar addition ( I would not add more than 25% of your added butter) can reduce batch times, theoretically this should come at the expense of your fans volatile removal ability, but I think final viscosity isn't much different.

Incidentally, how thoroughly these machines grind is purely a function of time. I like refiner conches but like any piece of equipment they have their limitations.

Hi Ben, I remember I was in this thread a while ago and wanted to use a 20 Ton Floor Shop press from Harbor Freight (cost only:

http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-shop-press-32879.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNzQzMDYzNTEiLCJza3UiOiIzMjg3OSIsImlzIjoiMTU0Ljk5IiwicHJvZHVjdF9p%0D%0AZCI6IjQ1MyJ9%0D%0A&hftref=cj

Back then, I did not have the detailed design of the cylinder and the other elments that are in contact with the liquor - Now I see that Mindo chocolate posted a Video - It looks interesting (Thx for sharing this post) - Now, I need to check with my local machinist how much it cost to make it here in Houston. I would like to like to see if I can come up with a hybrid design between the features in this one and the Cacao Cucina one:

Lab Cocoa Butter Press
 

This thread has a video of a simple press made by Mindo Chocolate: 

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/group_discuss/979/cocoa-butter-press

I don't know how much it is or it's production capability.

Huh, I would have thought that more viscous chocolate would refine faster and more thoroughly. On a related note, does anyone know if adding butter at the start or a few hours in has an effect on viscosity?

I don't have any recommendations for commercially-made presses for under $10k or thereabouts - 50kg/hr.

You can go to school on the videos for Grenada Chocolate Company and Cacao Cucina to get an idea of how to put one together as you've indicated a willingness to make one.

Thanks! Much appreciated!

Greg:

Can you post a photo (or photos) of what the attachment point looks like? You almost certainly need a tool of some kind but hopefully it's not a special tool.

All tanks are the same - the tricky part in using them is when there is only a small amount of chocolate in the bottom.

I often start with 2kg in a 6kg tank. That's easy enough to work with. The tricky part is when you start your moulding and you get down to the last 500-750g. At that point I often hold one end of the tank up so that the chocolate pools at one end. Alternatively, lift the pan out of the tank and simply pour the remaining chocolate into waiting moulds.

Gap,

This is really good information for me. I have been uncertain about how to simplify and make the process more efficient. I just have two stone grinders that hold 2liters in the moment. Do you think that would be too little to have in a 6l/kg melting tank(2 liters per tank)? I'd rather not get the smallest or the largest either, for now. I just want to make the right decision in purchases while starting out. 

Thanks!

Sabrina

Hi everyone!   I just picked up a used cutter and some of the strings are broken on a couple of frames.  Do I neeed a special tool to loosen the bolts on the frame so I can replace strings?

Ok Thx Clay, it looks like I need to raise my budget; I am willing to spend more on a more descent machine something between 2K - 5K (I would like to stay as low as possible) do you have any recomendations? 

In the same vein, you may find when grinding less viscous formulations that there are nibs that do not get processed, a trip through a screen is advised.

Thanks Clay!

I am definitely going to have a good look at the stand alone units. In the summer time our RH reading can get as high as 70% -- even with the dehumidifier on. I would like to keep it around 50% or less.  What we currently have is a $250 unti from the hardware store. I don't think it is strong enough for our size room. The untis in the link are definitely bigger and more powerful so one of those will probably do the job. Thanks again!

Daniel

Daniel -

Do you know what the humidity range is already? Do you have a digital hygrometer that records? You should!

RH percentage will determine (to a large extent) how many changes of air per hour you need. (60-70% == 3 changes/hour; 70-80% == 4 changes/hour, etc). If you want a deep dive on how to calculate capacity, here's a read .

You can get a single large unit or multiple smaller units. If you can reduce the volume you need to dehumidify that could help. If you have HVAC you could install an i nline system .

Here's a source for stand-alonecommercial units. Here's another .

Here is a system to consider for walk-ins .

Note: I have not used any of this equipment nor purchased from the vendors. These are not recommendations. I just did some quick research.

I love winter and how dry it makes it our production facility. Warm and Humid weather is on its way though and we need to dehumidify our production space. Our space is about 2,000 square feet with high ceilings (at least 20 feet high) . We want to be able to make toffee, caramel, nougat, etc... all summer long. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to buy? Thank you!

Daniel